Do you pay separately for documentation from a partner?

Unfortunately, what I was afraid of, is that David Faye has chosen to tell me to pound sand on getting that documentation if I do leave them as my partner of record.

Christian Wettre is this really the type of partners you want associated with Sugar?

Personally, that is just bad business.

Adrian Boerstra it seems you can't actually help as you thought you could.

This is what I got from Dallin Verdonk. He also said he is not even sure development made any notes about what they did.

"If you pause your partner change, we could work with Sugar on your behalf to resolve the current issues, currently the Jira dump I can get you probably won’t be the most practical form to work with to see what works been done.

 As things stand now, support won’t let us work with you with this pending."

If you have someone do anything for you - GET DOCUMENTATION!!!

Chris Pennington Jason Rushforth Craig Charlton maybe you care too

Hi John Kitsmiller

Thanks for raising the awareness here, I’ve seen this situation arise throughout my career with different CRM (and ERP) vendors and partners.  The headline always seems obvious (“What ! there is no documentation), but as with most things in life there is often more below the surface.  It broadly comes down to paying close attention to what was agreed in the initial Statement of Work (SOW), and checking assumptions; i.e. are you buying i) a Customization or ii) a Customization+Documentation.  I agree with you that KSS-21 on its own means nothing, but hopeful either you or Faye have a copy of the original proposal or SOW describing what you wanted it to achieve.  I would not automatically leap to a notion of bad business or poor partnership, these situations typically arise as a consequence of downward pressure on partners to produce customizations for cheaper and cheaper prices.  Producing the associated Documentation takes time/effort and hence cost.  Even though producing the documentation at the time is a cheaper exercise, I’ve seen customers delay the purchase of documentation indefinitely – or until such time as they absolutely need it (such as your case).  It’s a balancing act, do you pay for documentation upfront that you might not need or pay more dollars down the track and have the developer recreate the required material.   In this situation, since no documentation appears to have been purchased originally, it needs a developer (any developer) to look at the code to determine its use.  Faye maybe able to cursorily review the code and give you a sense of what the code is intended to do, without needed to go to the effort of producing full-blown documentation.

Thank you Chris Pennington. I guess I should have asked earlier, that's my fault. I never considered a developer simply wouldn't provide documentation of what they did. But, you live and you learn. And this can also be a learning lesson for others.

To be clear, I am not asking for detailed code, or screenshots, or really much more than what was done, what fields were created, what, well, what was done.

Maybe, as you say, all Sugar partners do the same - only provide documentation if it is asked for, and then paid for. That was the initial question. I am not sure if there is an assumption that one partner will be the only one that works for you and makes changes.

But, no matter what way you look at it, it is unfortunate I was told it could be done if only I would pause my decision to make a charge of partner.

Lots learned here, and hopefully others can avoid my experience.

As I called out above...

  Ask for documentation!!!  

Hey John Kitsmiller,

I saw this thread popping up 3 times in my notifications and would not like to reply but I can't resist. I'm a former employee of a SugarCRM Partner, working in technical support and could see several types of customers.

Working in support you must be able to speak several types of languages. Not what you think, the languages are Sales, Service, Marketing, Admin, CEO, Service Manager, Sales Manager... and that applies to both sides. I have seen so many projects in presales, after sales... becoming success and not.... you know what? this is business. All want to make money. The customer wants the cheapest project, the supplier wants the best marging. If a project becomes successfully, both sides made a good deal and trust each other.

YOU DID NOT!

You got what you want? I don't know! Why do you want a documentation now if you did not take care of as was a part of the project and a milestone before going live? Ask yourself!

A good documentation describes what the software you asked for is doing. You got the software but do not have the documentation? Sorry it WAS your responsibility!

Don't blame others here for your mistake! Doing it officially is a blame game.

Yes it is true: you deserve the documentation but you was blind enough to take care you got it. The time you could get it was before the go live. Would have they got the deal if documentation efforts were included? I don't think so.

Those ~1-3 days of effort on top for documentation might be too expensive for you. Have you taken care at this time? I don't think so. In case of documentation was not in, quality assurance was also not an aspected in the effort... have you asked for this and were willing to pay for? I bet you were  not. Because at this time all was about to get the solution for your pain at the lowest costs...

In my opinion you just made a bad deal. You lost it. Thats what the business is. Sales won. I don't like those guys but they did their job. Learn your lession and kick their asses next time and

TELL THEM WHAT KIND OF DOCUMENTATION YOU EXPECT!

I'm sorry but this is the answear not only you deserve but everyone else need to keep in mind:

1. If you have a pain: describe it for yourself, honest and detailed

2. look for a service partner who understands you, describes how can help you ( documentation ) and delivers a bindingly project plan including milestones

3. don't accept a delivery before anything both sides agreed before has been fullfilled.

4. If money prevents to archive aboves points, you will do a bad investment

5. Learn your lessons

Bests

Björn

Hey John Kitsmiller,

I saw this thread popping up 3 times in my notifications and would not like to reply but I can't resist. I'm a former employee of a SugarCRM Partner, working in technical support and could see several types of customers.

Working in support you must be able to speak several types of languages. Not what you think, the languages are Sales, Service, Marketing, Admin, CEO, Service Manager, Sales Manager... and that applies to both sides. I have seen so many projects in presales, after sales... becoming success and not.... you know what? this is business. All want to make money. The customer wants the cheapest project, the supplier wants the best marging. If a project becomes successfully, both sides made a good deal and trust each other.

YOU DID NOT!

You got what you want? I don't know! Why do you want a documentation now if you did not take care of as was a part of the project and a milestone before going live? Ask yourself!

A good documentation describes what the software you asked for is doing. You got the software but do not have the documentation? Sorry it WAS your responsibility!

Don't blame others here for your mistake! Doing it officially is a blame game.

Yes it is true: you deserve the documentation but you was blind enough to take care you got it. The time you could get it was before the go live. Would have they got the deal if documentation efforts were included? I don't think so.

Those ~1-3 days of effort on top for documentation might be too expensive for you. Have you taken care at this time? I don't think so. In case of documentation was not in, quality assurance was also not an aspected in the effort... have you asked for this and were willing to pay for? I bet you were  not. Because at this time all was about to get the solution for your pain at the lowest costs...

In my opinion you just made a bad deal. You lost it. Thats what the business is. Sales won. I don't like those guys but they did their job. Learn your lession and kick their asses next time and

TELL THEM WHAT KIND OF DOCUMENTATION YOU EXPECT!

I'm sorry but this is the answear not only you deserve but everyone else need to keep in mind:

1. If you have a pain: describe it for yourself, honest and detailed

2. look for a service partner who understands you, describes how can help you ( documentation ) and delivers a bindingly project plan including milestones

3. don't accept a delivery before anything both sides agreed before has been fullfilled.

4. If money prevents to archive aboves points, you will do a bad investment

5. Learn your lessons

Bests

Björn